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	<title>Comments on: Barbarians at the Gates</title>
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		<title>By: Waldo</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2010/01/barbarians-at-the-gates.html/comment-page-1#comment-7942</link>
		<dc:creator>Waldo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 17:50:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=1712#comment-7942</guid>
		<description>Mind you, I would not defend the squelching of academic debate, but there are always two sides - something that CS is rather weak about showing - and it would appear that Albright was (perhaps, this is only conjecture) jumping the gun a little and abusing the position of a volunteer job (perhaps [conjecture, mind you] enjoying the limelight a bit too much).  One can still find him on the UW website, by the way - no one lost a job of any sort, volunteer or otherwise.  So I&#039;m not sure this really sounds like academic intimidation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mind you, I would not defend the squelching of academic debate, but there are always two sides &#8211; something that CS is rather weak about showing &#8211; and it would appear that Albright was (perhaps, this is only conjecture) jumping the gun a little and abusing the position of a volunteer job (perhaps [conjecture, mind you] enjoying the limelight a bit too much).  One can still find him on the UW website, by the way &#8211; no one lost a job of any sort, volunteer or otherwise.  So I&#8217;m not sure this really sounds like academic intimidation.</p>
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		<title>By: Waldo</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2010/01/barbarians-at-the-gates.html/comment-page-1#comment-7941</link>
		<dc:creator>Waldo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 17:44:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=1712#comment-7941</guid>
		<description>Harry, now be fair.  I found this here: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003618979_warming15m.html

Mote, upset that Albright was broadly distributing e-mails about the issue, last week told Albright that he would have to let Mote preview any e-mails before sending them out, if he was tying his work to the state climatologist&#039;s office.

Mote&#039;s position as the state climatologist is a volunteer job that doesn&#039;t carry any official recognition or rules. Mote agreed to do the job several years ago, and his colleagues accepted it. The office collects and disseminates climate information and advises the state on climate-related issues.

When Albright refused Mote&#039;s ultimatum, Mote barred him from associating himself with the state climatologist&#039;s office.

Mote said Albright was sending out messages showing just his side of the story, and airing an analysis that hadn&#039;t gone through proper quality checks. As a representative of the climatologist&#039;s office, there needed to be standards, he said.

&quot;I&#039;m not trying to squelch debate by any means,&quot; Mote said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Harry, now be fair.  I found this here: <a href="http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003618979_warming15m.html" rel="nofollow">http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003618979_warming15m.html</a></p>
<p>Mote, upset that Albright was broadly distributing e-mails about the issue, last week told Albright that he would have to let Mote preview any e-mails before sending them out, if he was tying his work to the state climatologist&#8217;s office.</p>
<p>Mote&#8217;s position as the state climatologist is a volunteer job that doesn&#8217;t carry any official recognition or rules. Mote agreed to do the job several years ago, and his colleagues accepted it. The office collects and disseminates climate information and advises the state on climate-related issues.</p>
<p>When Albright refused Mote&#8217;s ultimatum, Mote barred him from associating himself with the state climatologist&#8217;s office.</p>
<p>Mote said Albright was sending out messages showing just his side of the story, and airing an analysis that hadn&#8217;t gone through proper quality checks. As a representative of the climatologist&#8217;s office, there needed to be standards, he said.</p>
<p>&#8220;I&#8217;m not trying to squelch debate by any means,&#8221; Mote said.</p>
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		<title>By: GregO</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2010/01/barbarians-at-the-gates.html/comment-page-1#comment-7882</link>
		<dc:creator>GregO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 20:36:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=1712#comment-7882</guid>
		<description>No doubt a lot of baggage is carried in with people&#039;s opinion on AGW - pro and con.  Before Climategate I really didn&#039;t pay that much attention to Man-Made Global Warming - after Climategate I have become a fanatic and have read a bunch of books; bookmarked websites (just added this one...) and started talking to all my friends about AGW.  Wow.  People that buy-in to AGW are very not into being confronted with any contradictions to their belief system.  It is really like talking about religion as opposed to science or public policy.  Just listen to the deafening silence coming out of American MSM on this (they are laming-out in a most gutless fashion leaving the field of battle to the web)...No question this is a loaded topic and just talking about it with the &quot;wrong&quot; viewpoint can get you in trouble with friends and colleagues.  So much for freedom of speech; say whatever you like; but watch out if you get caught guilty of independent thought!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No doubt a lot of baggage is carried in with people&#8217;s opinion on AGW &#8211; pro and con.  Before Climategate I really didn&#8217;t pay that much attention to Man-Made Global Warming &#8211; after Climategate I have become a fanatic and have read a bunch of books; bookmarked websites (just added this one&#8230;) and started talking to all my friends about AGW.  Wow.  People that buy-in to AGW are very not into being confronted with any contradictions to their belief system.  It is really like talking about religion as opposed to science or public policy.  Just listen to the deafening silence coming out of American MSM on this (they are laming-out in a most gutless fashion leaving the field of battle to the web)&#8230;No question this is a loaded topic and just talking about it with the &#8220;wrong&#8221; viewpoint can get you in trouble with friends and colleagues.  So much for freedom of speech; say whatever you like; but watch out if you get caught guilty of independent thought!</p>
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		<title>By: ADiff</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2010/01/barbarians-at-the-gates.html/comment-page-1#comment-7748</link>
		<dc:creator>ADiff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 21:02:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=1712#comment-7748</guid>
		<description>This source may be worth a look: http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&amp;ContentRecord_id=04373015-802a-23ad-4bf9-c3f02278f4cf&amp;Issue_id=

It details numerous well documented and highly public cases where those in the scientific field who challenged the &#039;science&#039; of Catastrophic AGW where censored, censured, professionally ridiculed or dismissed.

Can there be any doubt at all that advocates of Catastrophic AGW have tried to defend their theories by silencing their critics politically?  The basis isn&#039;t science at all, it&#039;s based on their lack of sufficient faith in the advocate&#039;s beliefs, per se, regardless any scientific factors at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This source may be worth a look: <a href="http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&amp;ContentRecord_id=04373015-802a-23ad-4bf9-c3f02278f4cf&amp;Issue_id=" rel="nofollow">http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&amp;ContentRecord_id=04373015-802a-23ad-4bf9-c3f02278f4cf&amp;Issue_id=</a></p>
<p>It details numerous well documented and highly public cases where those in the scientific field who challenged the &#8216;science&#8217; of Catastrophic AGW where censored, censured, professionally ridiculed or dismissed.</p>
<p>Can there be any doubt at all that advocates of Catastrophic AGW have tried to defend their theories by silencing their critics politically?  The basis isn&#8217;t science at all, it&#8217;s based on their lack of sufficient faith in the advocate&#8217;s beliefs, per se, regardless any scientific factors at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Harrywr2</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2010/01/barbarians-at-the-gates.html/comment-page-1#comment-7737</link>
		<dc:creator>Harrywr2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 00:28:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=1712#comment-7737</guid>
		<description>Waldo

&quot;can we find evidence of a professor / scientists dismissed on these grounds?&quot;

At least 1

The associate Washington state climatologist looked in a claim of &#039;unprecedented glacier melt&#039; on Mt Rainier, and based on his review of the meticulous records that have been kept since 1931 concluded there wasn&#039;t any. He was promptly stripped of his title. We had another event in 2009...someone found a survey marker on bare ground on Mt Rainier and claimed &#039;unprecedented melting&#039;, some brave sole at USGS looked into the record and sure enough, the survey marker had been placed on &#039;bare ground&#039; in 1956. Don&#039;t know if the USGS person kept there job or not.


News link and excerpt
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008094636_climate06m.html
&quot;The dispute traces back to 2007, when UW meteorologist Mark Albright, an associate of Mass and co-author of the new study, challenged claims that Northwest snowpacks had fallen by half in the second half of the 20th century.
In the ensuing debate, Mote stripped Albright of his title as associate state climatologist. Mass then accused Mote of censorship.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Waldo</p>
<p>&#8220;can we find evidence of a professor / scientists dismissed on these grounds?&#8221;</p>
<p>At least 1</p>
<p>The associate Washington state climatologist looked in a claim of &#8216;unprecedented glacier melt&#8217; on Mt Rainier, and based on his review of the meticulous records that have been kept since 1931 concluded there wasn&#8217;t any. He was promptly stripped of his title. We had another event in 2009&#8230;someone found a survey marker on bare ground on Mt Rainier and claimed &#8216;unprecedented melting&#8217;, some brave sole at USGS looked into the record and sure enough, the survey marker had been placed on &#8216;bare ground&#8217; in 1956. Don&#8217;t know if the USGS person kept there job or not.</p>
<p>News link and excerpt<br />
<a href="http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008094636_climate06m.html" rel="nofollow">http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008094636_climate06m.html</a><br />
&#8220;The dispute traces back to 2007, when UW meteorologist Mark Albright, an associate of Mass and co-author of the new study, challenged claims that Northwest snowpacks had fallen by half in the second half of the 20th century.<br />
In the ensuing debate, Mote stripped Albright of his title as associate state climatologist. Mass then accused Mote of censorship.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2010/01/barbarians-at-the-gates.html/comment-page-1#comment-7735</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 17:35:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=1712#comment-7735</guid>
		<description>Pat Moffitt:

&quot;There are a number of possible reasons for this phenomena. The kindest is virtuous corruption (basically -belief that the goal of AGW is more important than the science)&quot;

I have to disagree. I&#039;m a member of a chemistry department, with quite a few people whom I consider smarter than myself. Most of them support AGW - but no one benefits personally in any way. In discussions I had with several of them, it became clear that they simply hadn&#039;t looked into the evidence themselves. Some readily use terms like &quot;denialists&quot; and so on, making it pretty plain that they get their information from the MSM rather than the scientific literature. 

Most of them are politically left of center and quite sure of these beliefs, without spending much intellectual effort on justifying such positions either. The correlation between AGW skepticism and conservative outlook feeds the dismissive attitude - lumping AGW skeptics together with creationists and other marginally literate right-wingers is quite effective with our crowd.

So, I&#039;d say it&#039;s another case of &quot;never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence&quot;. Outside their area of specialization, scientists are no less incompetent than other folks.

BTW it&#039;s &quot;this phenomenon&quot; - phenomena is plural, like media (singular: medium), data (sg. datum), criteria (sg. criterion). The word &quot;phenomenon&quot; means &quot;thing&quot;, phenomena &quot;things&quot;, which is much easier to get right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pat Moffitt:</p>
<p>&#8220;There are a number of possible reasons for this phenomena. The kindest is virtuous corruption (basically -belief that the goal of AGW is more important than the science)&#8221;</p>
<p>I have to disagree. I&#8217;m a member of a chemistry department, with quite a few people whom I consider smarter than myself. Most of them support AGW &#8211; but no one benefits personally in any way. In discussions I had with several of them, it became clear that they simply hadn&#8217;t looked into the evidence themselves. Some readily use terms like &#8220;denialists&#8221; and so on, making it pretty plain that they get their information from the MSM rather than the scientific literature. </p>
<p>Most of them are politically left of center and quite sure of these beliefs, without spending much intellectual effort on justifying such positions either. The correlation between AGW skepticism and conservative outlook feeds the dismissive attitude &#8211; lumping AGW skeptics together with creationists and other marginally literate right-wingers is quite effective with our crowd.</p>
<p>So, I&#8217;d say it&#8217;s another case of &#8220;never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence&#8221;. Outside their area of specialization, scientists are no less incompetent than other folks.</p>
<p>BTW it&#8217;s &#8220;this phenomenon&#8221; &#8211; phenomena is plural, like media (singular: medium), data (sg. datum), criteria (sg. criterion). The word &#8220;phenomenon&#8221; means &#8220;thing&#8221;, phenomena &#8220;things&#8221;, which is much easier to get right.</p>
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		<title>By: h</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2010/01/barbarians-at-the-gates.html/comment-page-1#comment-7734</link>
		<dc:creator>h</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 06:13:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=1712#comment-7734</guid>
		<description>Based on rigorous analysis I argue a position that communicates a real understanding of the candidate, the desire to say, “look what an enlightened person I am, I have voted for a black man for President.”</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Based on rigorous analysis I argue a position that communicates a real understanding of the candidate, the desire to say, “look what an enlightened person I am, I have voted for a black man for President.”</p>
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		<title>By: hunter</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2010/01/barbarians-at-the-gates.html/comment-page-1#comment-7731</link>
		<dc:creator>hunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 01:20:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=1712#comment-7731</guid>
		<description>Ralf,
We are of the same generation.
Many of us were still taught to be skeptical and critical in our thinking.
On of the most interesting things I notice is the majority of opinion leaders on the AGW side are highly urbanized, and as you point out, tend to not spend much time outside.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ralf,<br />
We are of the same generation.<br />
Many of us were still taught to be skeptical and critical in our thinking.<br />
On of the most interesting things I notice is the majority of opinion leaders on the AGW side are highly urbanized, and as you point out, tend to not spend much time outside.</p>
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		<title>By: Ralf Dekker</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2010/01/barbarians-at-the-gates.html/comment-page-1#comment-7729</link>
		<dc:creator>Ralf Dekker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 23:22:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=1712#comment-7729</guid>
		<description>Somehow many people of my generation (1957) genuinely and intuitively believe that the (local) climate has warmed considerably. They remember the cold days in their youth. So they are receptive to the global warming story. Before i started to dive into the sceptical global warming view I thought the same. The local temperature record, however manipulated and &#039;warmed&#039;, does not really show a change that would have been discerneable to me. I remember being surprised when I first saw that. 
I seriously think there might be a severe memory bias there. When I was a kid i was sent out to play on the street for the full day (outside school hours clearly). Playing inside the house was a rare event since that would create a mess, hence more work for my mother. As a result I vividly remember &#039;playing&#039; outside for hours, having cold feet, sliding on the ice in winter, etc. I am sure most of my generation peers have a similar story to tell. Nowadays I get in the car or stay inside. Never to be really exposed to the elements again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Somehow many people of my generation (1957) genuinely and intuitively believe that the (local) climate has warmed considerably. They remember the cold days in their youth. So they are receptive to the global warming story. Before i started to dive into the sceptical global warming view I thought the same. The local temperature record, however manipulated and &#8216;warmed&#8217;, does not really show a change that would have been discerneable to me. I remember being surprised when I first saw that.<br />
I seriously think there might be a severe memory bias there. When I was a kid i was sent out to play on the street for the full day (outside school hours clearly). Playing inside the house was a rare event since that would create a mess, hence more work for my mother. As a result I vividly remember &#8216;playing&#8217; outside for hours, having cold feet, sliding on the ice in winter, etc. I am sure most of my generation peers have a similar story to tell. Nowadays I get in the car or stay inside. Never to be really exposed to the elements again.</p>
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		<title>By: hunter</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2010/01/barbarians-at-the-gates.html/comment-page-1#comment-7725</link>
		<dc:creator>hunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 22:34:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=1712#comment-7725</guid>
		<description>Here is an idea:
Why not try to have thread that is not highjacked by waldo?
Chrichton, who was a very accomplished academic himself, was perfectly capable of understanding what he read.
As a generalist, he had an adavantage over specialists in seeing a bigger picture than narrowly focused specialists.
If he was able to assemble a compelling picture out of the parts that he accurately found in the academic forest that is at odds with the owners of the various &#039;trees&#039; persepctives, there is very likely more to it than his being wrong.
The recent developments, showing that soot accounts for much ice melting, and that CO2 is not going to create massive positive fedbacks, are much more in line with what Chrichton saw from the evidence than the consensus that many are highly dependent on.
Also, it must be pointed out that the consensus view, for years, according to the leaked e-mails, was enforced by distorting the perspective people were able to achieve on the AGW theory.
Data diddling, criminal coverup (at least in Britain), dubious algorithms, dubious data base management, all underscore that the consensus perspective is not likely to be that accurate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is an idea:<br />
Why not try to have thread that is not highjacked by waldo?<br />
Chrichton, who was a very accomplished academic himself, was perfectly capable of understanding what he read.<br />
As a generalist, he had an adavantage over specialists in seeing a bigger picture than narrowly focused specialists.<br />
If he was able to assemble a compelling picture out of the parts that he accurately found in the academic forest that is at odds with the owners of the various &#8216;trees&#8217; persepctives, there is very likely more to it than his being wrong.<br />
The recent developments, showing that soot accounts for much ice melting, and that CO2 is not going to create massive positive fedbacks, are much more in line with what Chrichton saw from the evidence than the consensus that many are highly dependent on.<br />
Also, it must be pointed out that the consensus view, for years, according to the leaked e-mails, was enforced by distorting the perspective people were able to achieve on the AGW theory.<br />
Data diddling, criminal coverup (at least in Britain), dubious algorithms, dubious data base management, all underscore that the consensus perspective is not likely to be that accurate.</p>
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