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	<title>Comments on: Lindzen &amp; Choi</title>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2009/11/lindzen-choi.html/comment-page-1#comment-6423</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 17:27:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=1380#comment-6423</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t understand the objections to Dr. Lindzen&#039;s paper; the objections seem to be impossible on their surface.

If you draw a boundary between the outer atmosphere and space and treat the planet (with atmosphere) as a closed system, at equilibrium the amount of energy released through the boundary must be equal to the amount of energy passing into the boundary from the sun. As a baseline, everyone assumes that the amount of energy passing into the system from the sun remains constant. If the temperature of the system inside the boundary is to increase, it is absolutely necessary that the total energy passing through the boundary must go down, at least temporarily, permanently trapping the energy in the system and raising the system temperature.

Dr. Lindzen&#039;s paper shows that once a temperature increase occurs -- regardless of the reason -- the system responds by moving out of equilibrium and releasing more energy into space than is provided by the sun. Thus, the temperate falls from the new (perturbed) temperature to a level between the initial equilibrium and the post-perturbation temperatures, until the equilibrium is reestablished.

Any model that results in a system temperature above the initial perturbation (above roughly 1C for doubling of CO2) MUST, mathematically, do so by reducing net radiation released into space below the equilibrium point so that the additional energy can accumulate and the temperature can rise. Only by reducing net energy released into space can the system heat itself. All other forms of heating must, by definition, simply move energy within the closed system resulting in redistribution of energy but no net heating.

The author of the note above notes &quot;Models that assumed otherwise [from increased radiation resulting from increased temperature] would have near infinite temepratures.&quot; Dr. Lindzen addresses this explicitly in his paper. &quot;Indeed, Figure 3c suggests that models should have a range of sensitivities extending from about 1.5C to infinite sensitivity (rather than 5C as commonly asserted), given the presence of spurious positive feedback. However, response time increases with increasing sensitivity [Lindzen and Giannitsis, 1998], and models were probably not run sufficiently long to realize their full sensitivity.&quot;

I often find that scientists over-complicate matters. If you treat climate change as a simple energy balance equation around the Earth&#039;s atmosphere, Dr. Lindzen&#039;s findings make perfect sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t understand the objections to Dr. Lindzen&#8217;s paper; the objections seem to be impossible on their surface.</p>
<p>If you draw a boundary between the outer atmosphere and space and treat the planet (with atmosphere) as a closed system, at equilibrium the amount of energy released through the boundary must be equal to the amount of energy passing into the boundary from the sun. As a baseline, everyone assumes that the amount of energy passing into the system from the sun remains constant. If the temperature of the system inside the boundary is to increase, it is absolutely necessary that the total energy passing through the boundary must go down, at least temporarily, permanently trapping the energy in the system and raising the system temperature.</p>
<p>Dr. Lindzen&#8217;s paper shows that once a temperature increase occurs &#8212; regardless of the reason &#8212; the system responds by moving out of equilibrium and releasing more energy into space than is provided by the sun. Thus, the temperate falls from the new (perturbed) temperature to a level between the initial equilibrium and the post-perturbation temperatures, until the equilibrium is reestablished.</p>
<p>Any model that results in a system temperature above the initial perturbation (above roughly 1C for doubling of CO2) MUST, mathematically, do so by reducing net radiation released into space below the equilibrium point so that the additional energy can accumulate and the temperature can rise. Only by reducing net energy released into space can the system heat itself. All other forms of heating must, by definition, simply move energy within the closed system resulting in redistribution of energy but no net heating.</p>
<p>The author of the note above notes &#8220;Models that assumed otherwise [from increased radiation resulting from increased temperature] would have near infinite temepratures.&#8221; Dr. Lindzen addresses this explicitly in his paper. &#8220;Indeed, Figure 3c suggests that models should have a range of sensitivities extending from about 1.5C to infinite sensitivity (rather than 5C as commonly asserted), given the presence of spurious positive feedback. However, response time increases with increasing sensitivity [Lindzen and Giannitsis, 1998], and models were probably not run sufficiently long to realize their full sensitivity.&#8221;</p>
<p>I often find that scientists over-complicate matters. If you treat climate change as a simple energy balance equation around the Earth&#8217;s atmosphere, Dr. Lindzen&#8217;s findings make perfect sense.</p>
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		<title>By: Stig</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2009/11/lindzen-choi.html/comment-page-1#comment-6376</link>
		<dc:creator>Stig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 03:08:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=1380#comment-6376</guid>
		<description>Lindzen&amp;Choi proves only one thing: but most important:

No negative atmospheric feedback.

Ergo: for each doubeling of CO2, the resulting warming diminishes.

A strike to the very heart of the climate hypothesis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lindzen&amp;Choi proves only one thing: but most important:</p>
<p>No negative atmospheric feedback.</p>
<p>Ergo: for each doubeling of CO2, the resulting warming diminishes.</p>
<p>A strike to the very heart of the climate hypothesis.</p>
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		<title>By: Stig</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2009/11/lindzen-choi.html/comment-page-1#comment-6375</link>
		<dc:creator>Stig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 02:37:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=1380#comment-6375</guid>
		<description>The climate hypothesis has now become a flexible bucket. Throw any empirical data into it, and it just expands.

That is:

I claim that the moon is fully cheese.

You go to the moon. Come back with gravel.

I claim that the moon is almost fully cheese, but gravel in some places.

You go back to the moon. Come back with even more gravel and a few largers stones.

I claim that the moon is fully cheese, exept for a few places, where there is gravel and a few large stones.

You go back to the moon, etc,etc...

We now have a hypothesis that can not be disproved. It only expands to encompass any criticism. 

It is irrefutable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The climate hypothesis has now become a flexible bucket. Throw any empirical data into it, and it just expands.</p>
<p>That is:</p>
<p>I claim that the moon is fully cheese.</p>
<p>You go to the moon. Come back with gravel.</p>
<p>I claim that the moon is almost fully cheese, but gravel in some places.</p>
<p>You go back to the moon. Come back with even more gravel and a few largers stones.</p>
<p>I claim that the moon is fully cheese, exept for a few places, where there is gravel and a few large stones.</p>
<p>You go back to the moon, etc,etc&#8230;</p>
<p>We now have a hypothesis that can not be disproved. It only expands to encompass any criticism. </p>
<p>It is irrefutable.</p>
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		<title>By: Leonard Kramer</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2009/11/lindzen-choi.html/comment-page-1#comment-6043</link>
		<dc:creator>Leonard Kramer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 18:17:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=1380#comment-6043</guid>
		<description>I do not read in Lindzen &amp; Choi that increasing temperature results in decreasing outgoing radiation as you infer... it is rather that each increment of observed temperature contributes to much higher proportion of outgoing radiation flux than is assumed in all the models.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do not read in Lindzen &amp; Choi that increasing temperature results in decreasing outgoing radiation as you infer&#8230; it is rather that each increment of observed temperature contributes to much higher proportion of outgoing radiation flux than is assumed in all the models.</p>
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		<title>By: Veritas</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2009/11/lindzen-choi.html/comment-page-1#comment-5940</link>
		<dc:creator>Veritas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 02:21:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=1380#comment-5940</guid>
		<description>&quot;specifically, I didn’t understand how an increase in temperature could result in a decrease in outgoing radiation, as Lindzen says is assumed in all the models.&quot;

re-read it Lindzen &amp; Choi assurt that as surface temps increase radiation to space also increases, where as the IPCC models hold the opposite to be true. (IE green house effect, due to Co2 holding /stopping/ reflecting the heat back into the earths atmosphere). In other words, in &quot;all the models&quot; it is assumed is that the increase of Co2  in-turn increases the temperature, and the increase of temperature in-turn further increases the temperature because less can radiate out of the atmosphere due to the Co2. So their study was on the effects of temperature and radiation, which found that increases in temperature are marked by strong increases in radiation. In the entire scheme of things, the likely result is that the increase of temperature is not due to increased rates of Co2. Its case and point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;specifically, I didn’t understand how an increase in temperature could result in a decrease in outgoing radiation, as Lindzen says is assumed in all the models.&#8221;</p>
<p>re-read it Lindzen &amp; Choi assurt that as surface temps increase radiation to space also increases, where as the IPCC models hold the opposite to be true. (IE green house effect, due to Co2 holding /stopping/ reflecting the heat back into the earths atmosphere). In other words, in &#8220;all the models&#8221; it is assumed is that the increase of Co2  in-turn increases the temperature, and the increase of temperature in-turn further increases the temperature because less can radiate out of the atmosphere due to the Co2. So their study was on the effects of temperature and radiation, which found that increases in temperature are marked by strong increases in radiation. In the entire scheme of things, the likely result is that the increase of temperature is not due to increased rates of Co2. Its case and point.</p>
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		<title>By: NickyD</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2009/11/lindzen-choi.html/comment-page-1#comment-5922</link>
		<dc:creator>NickyD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 02:04:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=1380#comment-5922</guid>
		<description>CO2 does act like a heat exchanger in that it absorbs radiation very readily (esp at the lambdas you mentioned).  So does water.  So do all the other greenhouse gasses.  But this isn&#039;t the problem, its the re-radiation from these bodies that is the true problem.  Of course the CO2 doesn&#039;t &quot;choose&quot; to direct its heat re-radiation anywhere, however a solid body will absorb comparatively more radiation than surrounding distant molecules in the atmosphere.  So the terrestrial earth should then show signs of heating as it is a better absorber of these longer wavelengths than the atmosphere.  Oh, and it does.  Vostok, ocean coring, tree rings, and many many other proxes agree to a staggering effect.  Perhaps all the CO2 we blow into the atmosphere is not the cause of the record concentrations seen today, but I think you&#039;ll have a hard time finding this unknown source of CO2... Wouldn&#039;t it be pretty obvious?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CO2 does act like a heat exchanger in that it absorbs radiation very readily (esp at the lambdas you mentioned).  So does water.  So do all the other greenhouse gasses.  But this isn&#8217;t the problem, its the re-radiation from these bodies that is the true problem.  Of course the CO2 doesn&#8217;t &#8220;choose&#8221; to direct its heat re-radiation anywhere, however a solid body will absorb comparatively more radiation than surrounding distant molecules in the atmosphere.  So the terrestrial earth should then show signs of heating as it is a better absorber of these longer wavelengths than the atmosphere.  Oh, and it does.  Vostok, ocean coring, tree rings, and many many other proxes agree to a staggering effect.  Perhaps all the CO2 we blow into the atmosphere is not the cause of the record concentrations seen today, but I think you&#8217;ll have a hard time finding this unknown source of CO2&#8230; Wouldn&#8217;t it be pretty obvious?</p>
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		<title>By: ron from Texas</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2009/11/lindzen-choi.html/comment-page-1#comment-5899</link>
		<dc:creator>ron from Texas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:31:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=1380#comment-5899</guid>
		<description>Fact number one: most of the absorption and re-emission of CO2 happens in the first 20 ppm. That signal is primarily the contribution of the planet. Approx 95 %. Any further contribution hads just about nothing to the process. And this process is only happening mainly at 2.5 microns and 15.7 microns. And CO2 cannot direct its re-emission only toward the earth. Like any radiative product, it goes in all directions. That is why the Earth is still radiating as it as always been, per Lindzen&#039;s study.

Secondly, convection (Ya&#039;ll remember thermodynamics?) No object is holding in heat. Heat always moves from hot to cold, high energy to low energy. All an object can do is change the rate of heat exchange. It&#039;s why your air conditioner works.

Short answer: CO2 is not warming the planet and the atmosphere, in general, acts somewhat like an heat exchanger.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fact number one: most of the absorption and re-emission of CO2 happens in the first 20 ppm. That signal is primarily the contribution of the planet. Approx 95 %. Any further contribution hads just about nothing to the process. And this process is only happening mainly at 2.5 microns and 15.7 microns. And CO2 cannot direct its re-emission only toward the earth. Like any radiative product, it goes in all directions. That is why the Earth is still radiating as it as always been, per Lindzen&#8217;s study.</p>
<p>Secondly, convection (Ya&#8217;ll remember thermodynamics?) No object is holding in heat. Heat always moves from hot to cold, high energy to low energy. All an object can do is change the rate of heat exchange. It&#8217;s why your air conditioner works.</p>
<p>Short answer: CO2 is not warming the planet and the atmosphere, in general, acts somewhat like an heat exchanger.</p>
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		<title>By: hunter</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2009/11/lindzen-choi.html/comment-page-1#comment-5891</link>
		<dc:creator>hunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 13:27:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=1380#comment-5891</guid>
		<description>Ted Rado,
Exactly. The AGW promoters have turned CO2 into a magic potion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ted Rado,<br />
Exactly. The AGW promoters have turned CO2 into a magic potion.</p>
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		<title>By: Ted Rado</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2009/11/lindzen-choi.html/comment-page-1#comment-5888</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted Rado</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 01:00:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=1380#comment-5888</guid>
		<description>Perhaps someone could explain to me why the temperature doesn&#039;t run away without even without CO2.  If temperature goes up by a small amount, water vapor pressure goes up correspondingly, thus increasing greenhouse gas.  This raises temerature even more, continuing the cycle.  Thus temperature increase becomes autocatalytic.  Since this does not happen, there must be some mechanism that counteracts this effect which we do not understand.

Since water vapor alone can do the deed, CO2 is really not required to have runaway temperature increase, if greenhouse gas is the culprit.  Something is really wrong with our thinking here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps someone could explain to me why the temperature doesn&#8217;t run away without even without CO2.  If temperature goes up by a small amount, water vapor pressure goes up correspondingly, thus increasing greenhouse gas.  This raises temerature even more, continuing the cycle.  Thus temperature increase becomes autocatalytic.  Since this does not happen, there must be some mechanism that counteracts this effect which we do not understand.</p>
<p>Since water vapor alone can do the deed, CO2 is really not required to have runaway temperature increase, if greenhouse gas is the culprit.  Something is really wrong with our thinking here.</p>
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		<title>By: kuhnkat</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2009/11/lindzen-choi.html/comment-page-1#comment-5885</link>
		<dc:creator>kuhnkat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 07:40:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=1380#comment-5885</guid>
		<description>Leonard Weinstein,

It is PHYSICS like the IPCC people like to say. As anything gets warmer its radiation increases.

The idea that GG&#039;s delays radiation enough to actually cause a noteable effect is something you will eventually get over.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leonard Weinstein,</p>
<p>It is PHYSICS like the IPCC people like to say. As anything gets warmer its radiation increases.</p>
<p>The idea that GG&#8217;s delays radiation enough to actually cause a noteable effect is something you will eventually get over.</p>
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