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	<title>Comments on: Its all About the Feedback</title>
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		<title>By: Max</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2009/06/its-all-about-the-feedback.html/comment-page-1#comment-5096</link>
		<dc:creator>Max</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:09:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=1034#comment-5096</guid>
		<description>@Bart: Yeah, you can see that the earth climate oscillates if you just enlarge the time frame from years to millenia. Even then CO2 and temperature swings are lagging meaning that effects are time-delayed. But, how long is the time delay? If we look at CO2 its sometimes about several hundred years, meanning that temperature rises now would correspond to CO2 700 years ago, where man made climate was wholly through agriculture. 

However, the argument isn&#039;t focused on this lag, because the climate scientists think that the rate of change is also important and might change the response time. I am not sure that this is correct. It depends on how big the influence is. It&#039;s like air resistance of cars at a velocity of 15 mph against the forces necessary to accelerate the car to 30 mph. it is insignificant...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Bart: Yeah, you can see that the earth climate oscillates if you just enlarge the time frame from years to millenia. Even then CO2 and temperature swings are lagging meaning that effects are time-delayed. But, how long is the time delay? If we look at CO2 its sometimes about several hundred years, meanning that temperature rises now would correspond to CO2 700 years ago, where man made climate was wholly through agriculture. </p>
<p>However, the argument isn&#8217;t focused on this lag, because the climate scientists think that the rate of change is also important and might change the response time. I am not sure that this is correct. It depends on how big the influence is. It&#8217;s like air resistance of cars at a velocity of 15 mph against the forces necessary to accelerate the car to 30 mph. it is insignificant&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Bart van Deenen</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2009/06/its-all-about-the-feedback.html/comment-page-1#comment-5094</link>
		<dc:creator>Bart van Deenen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 11:19:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=1034#comment-5094</guid>
		<description>One of the things that suprises me (physicist and engineer) is how many of the people in this whole AGW argument don&#039;t seem to understand the difference between feedback and amplification. Let me explain:

Feedback is where a change in some input parameter causes a change in an output parameter which in its turn changes the input parameter. Positive feedback will always cause some kind of runaway, and is always stopped by some non-linearity (for instance Stefan Boltzmans law decides that the earth will not melt due to runaway CO2). Negative feedback is very common, and keeps systems stable at a certain value, unless timedelays are involved in the feedback, in which case oscillations might occur. All this is described mathematically with &lt;a href=&#039;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_theory&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Control Theory&lt;/a&gt;. The subject has been wel understood for at least a century by engineers.

Amplification is a factor that modifies the effect of an input parameter onto the output parameter. Amplifications can have any value, positive or negative. Amplification factors &lt;b&gt;can not cause runaway systems&lt;/b&gt; When Lindzen talks about an amplification factor of -1, he means that other mechanisms modify the original CO2 heat contribution so that the final effect on global temperature is 0.

I once read somewhere that the climate modelers are not really aware of control theory. If they are really confusing feedback and amplification, than that&#039;s certainly the case. That would make the outcome of their models pretty much without value.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the things that suprises me (physicist and engineer) is how many of the people in this whole AGW argument don&#8217;t seem to understand the difference between feedback and amplification. Let me explain:</p>
<p>Feedback is where a change in some input parameter causes a change in an output parameter which in its turn changes the input parameter. Positive feedback will always cause some kind of runaway, and is always stopped by some non-linearity (for instance Stefan Boltzmans law decides that the earth will not melt due to runaway CO2). Negative feedback is very common, and keeps systems stable at a certain value, unless timedelays are involved in the feedback, in which case oscillations might occur. All this is described mathematically with <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_theory' rel="nofollow">Control Theory</a>. The subject has been wel understood for at least a century by engineers.</p>
<p>Amplification is a factor that modifies the effect of an input parameter onto the output parameter. Amplifications can have any value, positive or negative. Amplification factors <b>can not cause runaway systems</b> When Lindzen talks about an amplification factor of -1, he means that other mechanisms modify the original CO2 heat contribution so that the final effect on global temperature is 0.</p>
<p>I once read somewhere that the climate modelers are not really aware of control theory. If they are really confusing feedback and amplification, than that&#8217;s certainly the case. That would make the outcome of their models pretty much without value.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2009/06/its-all-about-the-feedback.html/comment-page-1#comment-5091</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:22:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=1034#comment-5091</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been wandering through the comments here for awhile, but never posting.
I&#039;m still waiting for Hunter to provide some evidence for his vitriol-lined assertions. I&#039;ve yet to see any...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been wandering through the comments here for awhile, but never posting.<br />
I&#8217;m still waiting for Hunter to provide some evidence for his vitriol-lined assertions. I&#8217;ve yet to see any&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Alan D. McIntire</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2009/06/its-all-about-the-feedback.html/comment-page-1#comment-5090</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan D. McIntire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 01:51:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=1034#comment-5090</guid>
		<description>In reply to Sparkey.  From what I&#039;ve read, the percentage of U235 in nuclear reactors is on the order of 3% or so.  That&#039;s enough for runaway meltdown without the control rods, but there&#039;d be no mushroom cloud.   For a nuclear explosion you need about 35 lbs of 98% pure U235.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to Sparkey.  From what I&#8217;ve read, the percentage of U235 in nuclear reactors is on the order of 3% or so.  That&#8217;s enough for runaway meltdown without the control rods, but there&#8217;d be no mushroom cloud.   For a nuclear explosion you need about 35 lbs of 98% pure U235.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Anderson</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2009/06/its-all-about-the-feedback.html/comment-page-1#comment-5089</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:09:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=1034#comment-5089</guid>
		<description>Folks, Hunter is the one who had issues on a previous thread with the concept of feedbacks.

Please enlighten us, O Wise Hunter, (i) how long does it take for the climate system to respond to forcings, and (ii) does this delay in response ultimately result in a higher or a lower feedback and why?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Folks, Hunter is the one who had issues on a previous thread with the concept of feedbacks.</p>
<p>Please enlighten us, O Wise Hunter, (i) how long does it take for the climate system to respond to forcings, and (ii) does this delay in response ultimately result in a higher or a lower feedback and why?</p>
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		<title>By: Kalebarkab</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2009/06/its-all-about-the-feedback.html/comment-page-1#comment-5086</link>
		<dc:creator>Kalebarkab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 17:47:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=1034#comment-5086</guid>
		<description>I want to find good pop music. Help me please.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I want to find good pop music. Help me please.</p>
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		<title>By: Sparkey</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2009/06/its-all-about-the-feedback.html/comment-page-1#comment-5083</link>
		<dc:creator>Sparkey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:30:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=1034#comment-5083</guid>
		<description>Mike, 

AnonyMoose is correct.  In nuclear reactors the control rods and fission poisons (like boron in the fuel rods) absorb neutrons to prevent a runaway reaction.  Without these negative feedback processes the average 2.01 neutrons produced from each fission would near instantaneously produce a mushroom cloud.

In an environment where so many neutrons are absorbed the moderator around the fuel rods becomes important.  Most pressurized water reactors (PWR, the type I worked on in the U.S. Navy) use water around the fuel rods to both and transfer heat away fro the fuel to do work and reflect neutrons back into the fuel rods.  Chernobyl and U of Chicago designs used graphite as a moderator which had inherent many more risks.  If a PWR loses primary coolant the reaction stops; however, the issue latent heat removal remains (as it was a TMI when the core was partially uncovered).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike, </p>
<p>AnonyMoose is correct.  In nuclear reactors the control rods and fission poisons (like boron in the fuel rods) absorb neutrons to prevent a runaway reaction.  Without these negative feedback processes the average 2.01 neutrons produced from each fission would near instantaneously produce a mushroom cloud.</p>
<p>In an environment where so many neutrons are absorbed the moderator around the fuel rods becomes important.  Most pressurized water reactors (PWR, the type I worked on in the U.S. Navy) use water around the fuel rods to both and transfer heat away fro the fuel to do work and reflect neutrons back into the fuel rods.  Chernobyl and U of Chicago designs used graphite as a moderator which had inherent many more risks.  If a PWR loses primary coolant the reaction stops; however, the issue latent heat removal remains (as it was a TMI when the core was partially uncovered).</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff11</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2009/06/its-all-about-the-feedback.html/comment-page-1#comment-5082</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff11</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:26:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=1034#comment-5082</guid>
		<description>@Hunter: &quot;If frequent readers get any one message from this site, it should be that I will never, ever grasp even the simplest concepts. My frequent posts about feedback are all bullshit, because I haven’t been able to understand that the climate system does not respond instantly to forcings. I&#039;m desperately intellectually ill-equipped, and sadly this is one of those cases where someone lacks the knowledge even to understand how inadequate his knowledge is.&quot;

This is just so true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Hunter: &#8220;If frequent readers get any one message from this site, it should be that I will never, ever grasp even the simplest concepts. My frequent posts about feedback are all bullshit, because I haven’t been able to understand that the climate system does not respond instantly to forcings. I&#8217;m desperately intellectually ill-equipped, and sadly this is one of those cases where someone lacks the knowledge even to understand how inadequate his knowledge is.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is just so true.</p>
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		<title>By: Hunter</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2009/06/its-all-about-the-feedback.html/comment-page-1#comment-5080</link>
		<dc:creator>Hunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 09:53:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=1034#comment-5080</guid>
		<description>If frequent readers get any one message from this site, it should be that you will never, ever grasp even the simplest concepts.  Your frequent posts about feedback are all bullshit, because you haven&#039;t been able to understand that the climate system does not respond instantly to forcings. You&#039;re desperately intellectually ill-equipped, and sadly this is one of those cases where someone lacks the knowledge even to understand how inadequate their knowledge is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If frequent readers get any one message from this site, it should be that you will never, ever grasp even the simplest concepts.  Your frequent posts about feedback are all bullshit, because you haven&#8217;t been able to understand that the climate system does not respond instantly to forcings. You&#8217;re desperately intellectually ill-equipped, and sadly this is one of those cases where someone lacks the knowledge even to understand how inadequate their knowledge is.</p>
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		<title>By: hunter</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2009/06/its-all-about-the-feedback.html/comment-page-1#comment-5078</link>
		<dc:creator>hunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 03:15:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=1034#comment-5078</guid>
		<description>RC is not where climate issues get discussed. It is where AGW orthodoxy is enforced.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RC is not where climate issues get discussed. It is where AGW orthodoxy is enforced.</p>
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