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	<title>Comments on: It&#8217;s Not Zero</title>
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	<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2009/04/without-feedback.html</link>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2009/04/without-feedback.html/comment-page-1#comment-4886</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 00:23:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=969#comment-4886</guid>
		<description>Sorry, wrong chart ...  http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/04/04/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, wrong chart &#8230;  <a href="http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/04/04/" rel="nofollow">http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/04/04/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2009/04/without-feedback.html/comment-page-1#comment-4885</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 00:22:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=969#comment-4885</guid>
		<description>Maybe the loss of extent is slowing due to this ...  http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/rss_global_lt_march2009.png

Arctic temps are getting cooler ... err ... colder.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe the loss of extent is slowing due to this &#8230;  <a href="http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/rss_global_lt_march2009.png" rel="nofollow">http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/rss_global_lt_march2009.png</a></p>
<p>Arctic temps are getting cooler &#8230; err &#8230; colder.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2009/04/without-feedback.html/comment-page-1#comment-4884</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 00:08:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=969#comment-4884</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t see that the sea ice is melting all that fast ...  http://nsidc.org/data/seaice_index/images/daily_images/N_timeseries.png</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t see that the sea ice is melting all that fast &#8230;  <a href="http://nsidc.org/data/seaice_index/images/daily_images/N_timeseries.png" rel="nofollow">http://nsidc.org/data/seaice_index/images/daily_images/N_timeseries.png</a></p>
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		<title>By: JR</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2009/04/without-feedback.html/comment-page-1#comment-4863</link>
		<dc:creator>JR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 23:58:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=969#comment-4863</guid>
		<description>Have you seen this? It&#039;s the first 20 minutes or so of a new documentary about ocean 
acidification entitled, &quot;Sea Change&quot; ( http://www.aseachange.net/ ) It was 
shown this week at  the European Geosciences  Union 2009 meeting 
followed by a press conference by relevant scientists. You can see the 
film clip and press conference here.
http://www.h82.eu/webstream/egu2009/index.php?modid=18&amp;a=show&amp;pid=30

It&#039;s a must see.

Do you debate the increasing ocean acidification too?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have you seen this? It&#8217;s the first 20 minutes or so of a new documentary about ocean<br />
acidification entitled, &#8220;Sea Change&#8221; ( <a href="http://www.aseachange.net/" rel="nofollow">http://www.aseachange.net/</a> ) It was<br />
shown this week at  the European Geosciences  Union 2009 meeting<br />
followed by a press conference by relevant scientists. You can see the<br />
film clip and press conference here.<br />
<a href="http://www.h82.eu/webstream/egu2009/index.php?modid=18&amp;a=show&amp;pid=30" rel="nofollow">http://www.h82.eu/webstream/egu2009/index.php?modid=18&amp;a=show&amp;pid=30</a></p>
<p>It&#8217;s a must see.</p>
<p>Do you debate the increasing ocean acidification too?</p>
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		<title>By: JR</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2009/04/without-feedback.html/comment-page-1#comment-4839</link>
		<dc:creator>JR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Apr 2009 07:11:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=969#comment-4839</guid>
		<description>If climate sensitivity is less than the IPCC says then why is the melting of the summer Arctic sea ice accelerating and proceeding much faster than the worst case IPCC models? Or do you dispute the albedo effect as well?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If climate sensitivity is less than the IPCC says then why is the melting of the summer Arctic sea ice accelerating and proceeding much faster than the worst case IPCC models? Or do you dispute the albedo effect as well?</p>
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		<title>By: An Inquirer</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2009/04/without-feedback.html/comment-page-1#comment-4829</link>
		<dc:creator>An Inquirer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2009 16:26:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=969#comment-4829</guid>
		<description>In addition to the following research articles raising questions on linking CO2 increases to water vapor increases, there is the unresolved question of how clouds will react and influence climate as CO2 increases.

&quot;WATER VAPOR TRENDS AND VARIABILITY FROM THE GLOBAL NVAP DATASET&quot; by Thomas. H. Vonder Haar1, John M. Forsythe, Johnny Luo, David L. Randel and Shannon Woo

 
&quot;Ocean water vapor and cloud burden trends derived from the topex microwave radiometer&quot; by Brown, S.; Desai, S.; Keihm, S.; Ruf, C.

 
‘Trends in middle- and upper-level tropospheric humidity from NCEP reanalysis data’ by Garth Paltridge, Albert Arking and Michael Pook</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In addition to the following research articles raising questions on linking CO2 increases to water vapor increases, there is the unresolved question of how clouds will react and influence climate as CO2 increases.</p>
<p>&#8220;WATER VAPOR TRENDS AND VARIABILITY FROM THE GLOBAL NVAP DATASET&#8221; by Thomas. H. Vonder Haar1, John M. Forsythe, Johnny Luo, David L. Randel and Shannon Woo</p>
<p>&#8220;Ocean water vapor and cloud burden trends derived from the topex microwave radiometer&#8221; by Brown, S.; Desai, S.; Keihm, S.; Ruf, C.</p>
<p>‘Trends in middle- and upper-level tropospheric humidity from NCEP reanalysis data’ by Garth Paltridge, Albert Arking and Michael Pook</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2009/04/without-feedback.html/comment-page-1#comment-4826</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 16:50:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=969#comment-4826</guid>
		<description>Hunter, I suspect he is speaking of the Radiosonde reanalyses of humidity. Since I have probably set off your &quot;ATTACK!&quot; alarm by mention that I merely think this is what he means, I will stay out of this one and let you hash out your discussion of what observations are kosher and which not with someone else. Seeing as you are a paranoid kook and all that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hunter, I suspect he is speaking of the Radiosonde reanalyses of humidity. Since I have probably set off your &#8220;ATTACK!&#8221; alarm by mention that I merely think this is what he means, I will stay out of this one and let you hash out your discussion of what observations are kosher and which not with someone else. Seeing as you are a paranoid kook and all that.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2009/04/without-feedback.html/comment-page-1#comment-4825</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 15:26:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=969#comment-4825</guid>
		<description>Hunter:  While I understand why water vapor is deemed a feedback in that is does contribute to the variability of warming, to stop there is very misleading. Water vapor is a strong greenhouse gas and in most of the atmosphere, it is by far the GHG with the highest concentration.  It is overwhelmingly the dominant forcing, in the climate con man&#039;s sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hunter:  While I understand why water vapor is deemed a feedback in that is does contribute to the variability of warming, to stop there is very misleading. Water vapor is a strong greenhouse gas and in most of the atmosphere, it is by far the GHG with the highest concentration.  It is overwhelmingly the dominant forcing, in the climate con man&#8217;s sense.</p>
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		<title>By: Hunter</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2009/04/without-feedback.html/comment-page-1#comment-4823</link>
		<dc:creator>Hunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 10:36:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=969#comment-4823</guid>
		<description>&quot;This shows that there probably cannot be a runaway, infinite heating due to the CO2 greenhouse effect&quot;

And who the hell ever claimed there could be?

An Inquirer - water vapour feedback is observationally confirmed.  See for example:

* Soden et al. 2002, Science, &quot;Global Cooling After the Eruption of Mount Pinatubo: A Test of Climate Feedback by Water Vapor&quot;
* Dessler et al. 2008, GRL, &quot;Water-vapor climate feedback inferred from climate fluctuations, 2003-2008&quot;
* Gettelman &amp; Fu, 2007, J. Climate, &quot;Observed and Simulated Upper-Tropospheric Water Vapor Feedback&quot;

You didn&#039;t specify which observations you think &quot;run counter to the intuitive thought&quot;.  I wonder why not?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;This shows that there probably cannot be a runaway, infinite heating due to the CO2 greenhouse effect&#8221;</p>
<p>And who the hell ever claimed there could be?</p>
<p>An Inquirer &#8211; water vapour feedback is observationally confirmed.  See for example:</p>
<p>* Soden et al. 2002, Science, &#8220;Global Cooling After the Eruption of Mount Pinatubo: A Test of Climate Feedback by Water Vapor&#8221;<br />
* Dessler et al. 2008, GRL, &#8220;Water-vapor climate feedback inferred from climate fluctuations, 2003-2008&#8243;<br />
* Gettelman &amp; Fu, 2007, J. Climate, &#8220;Observed and Simulated Upper-Tropospheric Water Vapor Feedback&#8221;</p>
<p>You didn&#8217;t specify which observations you think &#8220;run counter to the intuitive thought&#8221;.  I wonder why not?</p>
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		<title>By: An Inquirer</title>
		<link>http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2009/04/without-feedback.html/comment-page-1#comment-4816</link>
		<dc:creator>An Inquirer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Apr 2009 13:04:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climate-skeptic.com/?p=969#comment-4816</guid>
		<description>Jacob and Erik K:

There are some phenomena which are well suited for laboratory experiments, and some which are not.  Laboratory experiments require the ability to isolate the relevant variable, control the other variables, and implement procedures that are verifiable and repeatable.  Think of the economic debate between supply-siders and Keynesians.  Both point to the Kennedy tax cuts as proof of their positions with Keynesians maintaining that consumers increased demand with increased disposable income and supply-siders arguing that the tax cuts led to increased motivation, more capital, and better technology which lead to increased supply.  We can’t isolate key variables and repeat the experiment.  (The Reagan tax cuts and Bush tax cuts again led to economic growth, but again key variables are not isolated.  Supply-siders argue that the surge in government spending in the late 60s &amp; 70s did not seem have a similar impact on economic growth, but Keynesians argue that the variable of increased energy prices was not controlled.)
In climate issues, both sides agree that under laboratory conditions doubling CO2 from preindustrial levels would lead to a one degree increase in temperature and that the impact is logarithmic. (Perhaps, we would not be greatly concerned about a one degree increase; perhaps the natural variability is more.)  However, there are issues that we cannot get into the laboratory experiment – water and air convections, cloud formations, flora response, and other feedbacks – to name just a few.  Global warming pessimists accept that CO2-induced warmer temperatures will cause a positive feedback via increased water vapor in the air.  That is an intuitive thought and would cause temperatures to rise by more than the one degree.  However, that feedback is not replicated in the laboratory experiment, and there are some scientific observations that run counter to the intuitive thought.  Moreover, laboratory experiments will not tell us whether a small rise in temperatures will have overall beneficial or harmful impacts.  Increased crop production and lower mortality rates have been associated with higher CO2 levels and warmer past temperatures, but we could hypothesize all sorts of negative impacts from warmer temperatures, and maybe we do not need to hypothesize – think of the 1930s.  Therefore the question about laboratory experiments is a good one, and one that neither side is afraid of, but not one that resolves the argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jacob and Erik K:</p>
<p>There are some phenomena which are well suited for laboratory experiments, and some which are not.  Laboratory experiments require the ability to isolate the relevant variable, control the other variables, and implement procedures that are verifiable and repeatable.  Think of the economic debate between supply-siders and Keynesians.  Both point to the Kennedy tax cuts as proof of their positions with Keynesians maintaining that consumers increased demand with increased disposable income and supply-siders arguing that the tax cuts led to increased motivation, more capital, and better technology which lead to increased supply.  We can’t isolate key variables and repeat the experiment.  (The Reagan tax cuts and Bush tax cuts again led to economic growth, but again key variables are not isolated.  Supply-siders argue that the surge in government spending in the late 60s &amp; 70s did not seem have a similar impact on economic growth, but Keynesians argue that the variable of increased energy prices was not controlled.)<br />
In climate issues, both sides agree that under laboratory conditions doubling CO2 from preindustrial levels would lead to a one degree increase in temperature and that the impact is logarithmic. (Perhaps, we would not be greatly concerned about a one degree increase; perhaps the natural variability is more.)  However, there are issues that we cannot get into the laboratory experiment – water and air convections, cloud formations, flora response, and other feedbacks – to name just a few.  Global warming pessimists accept that CO2-induced warmer temperatures will cause a positive feedback via increased water vapor in the air.  That is an intuitive thought and would cause temperatures to rise by more than the one degree.  However, that feedback is not replicated in the laboratory experiment, and there are some scientific observations that run counter to the intuitive thought.  Moreover, laboratory experiments will not tell us whether a small rise in temperatures will have overall beneficial or harmful impacts.  Increased crop production and lower mortality rates have been associated with higher CO2 levels and warmer past temperatures, but we could hypothesize all sorts of negative impacts from warmer temperatures, and maybe we do not need to hypothesize – think of the 1930s.  Therefore the question about laboratory experiments is a good one, and one that neither side is afraid of, but not one that resolves the argument.</p>
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